Calling out grifters is not healthy... what to do instead

Originally posted on X: x.com

The past week I’ve been seeing increased discord along with the inability to disagree respectfully in the ecosystem.

As expressed yesterday in the Head Ambassador call, I don’t think the discourse around “grifters” is healthy for the culture of the ecosystem.

Why not?

Because it encourages a culture where people attack each other.

This escalates as people try to find more “grift.”

It encourages vigilante justice and point scoring, which leaves truth behind.

It enables people with power or audiences to bully people without, and this becomes a vicious cycle.

It encourages ego and single mindedness to take hold, rather than understanding and support.

It’s not reflective of a protocol that is bringing change to the world, where multiple perspectives and communication styles need to come together to achieve a robust decentralized system.

What’s the alternative?

Show leadership.

Move the ecosystem forward from your own “heroic” actions.

Don’t engage in grifter conversation - find a different way. Yes, we need to correct wrongdoing, but how we do it is just as important.

Compete on how much you can inspire others to contribute to Polkadot.

Help make better decisions and improve decision-making. Don’t just litigate the past.

Engage people you disagree with.

Forgive mistakes.

The world is not black and white, and we need a culture of respect, communication and understanding in order to attract and retain the best humans.

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This is the future of decentralized polkadot leadership.

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I agree and share the sentiment that this can lead to a slippery path where we groom an unhealthy community and promote those who are better at burning bridges rather than building them.

I think the Polkadot DAO Heavy Hitters :boxing_glove: Debate on Marketing showed that we are much more open for discussion than with our online personas.

Maybe we need trained mediators for OpenGov, that facilitate conversations and remind people of violent phrasing?

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You believe that calling out scammers is bad PR and harmful to Polkadot. I believe the real issue is the presence of scammers, and calling them out is necessary.

Michiko Watanabe swindled OpenGov, yet he wasn’t punished or slashed. Everyone knows who Michiko is, yet there are zero consequences. That says everything you need to know about OpenGov.

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I don’t know who Michiko is. I’ve heard theories, but I haven’t seen any proof. Do you have some? If so, why the coy innuendo? If not, why the unfounded certainty?

There’s more than just rumors or theories. There are some bits and pieces of evidence, though they aren’t 100% proof yet, which explains my “coy innuendo.” However, some HAs are less prudent in that regard. For my part, I’m quite certain about who was involved.

Anyway, even Michiko’s account hasn’t suffered any negative consequences. I think we can all agree that Michiko’s account was involved :slight_smile:

Ah, yeah, some bits of evidence is about what I’ve heard too.

God point re: Michiko’s account, though!

If you think there should be some punitive consequences, you can propose a referendum–it sounds like you can make a good case and might get support. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to expect someone else to do it when you can do it yourself, imo.

I don’t yet have enough knowledge on how to create a referendum that could sanction Michiko. Once I do, I will open a referendum.

I’m still learning :slight_smile:

It’s not as hard as it used to be, and people will probably help if you ask nicely over on the Discord server or on Twitter…

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I understand your hurt and feeling that Polkadot was slighted in this instance.

It was not my intention to say that calling out scammers is bad PR for Polkadot, and I will try to explain. First of all, I think we should seek out wrongdoing and make sure it doesn’t happen again. That might happen in different forms depending on the circumstance. Perhaps punitive action is justified in some cases. Perhaps process changes in decision-making are needed. Or perhaps adding this to our joint history and memory serves the purpose.

My main point was that while calling people grifters may be effective in one or two instances, it’s counterproductive in the bigger picture because of potential downstream damage to the culture in Polkadot. And I believe everyone should be able to share their opinion and beliefs if they agree or disagree.

There are many ways to view the Michiko story. One way is to see that OpenGov is working properly. There were questions about Michiko since the beginning from many parties. Leemo happened to be involved with some of the most in-depth investigations, and eventually was convinced enough to put up a referendum to remove her. That required a lot of work and conviction to be developed that this was the appropriate action. All in all, the removal happened quickly.

Personally, I have no idea who Michiko is, aside from knowing the address used in the referendum.

For Polkadot to be successful, we have look forward. Polkadot needs to be 100x bigger than it is today or more in the next few years, and that’s where the energy and attention should be.

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I understand the point here. However, I didn’t see what this post refers too as a “grifter” statement pointed to Wantsbe. This term has been used at real people who are verified, such as myself when I arrived in eco participation of Open Gov. Good people with skills aren’t only eco participants.

I can understand reputation & work ethic, however these are discussions & shouldn’t be throwing out hateful speech, maybe just facts instead?

Thank you for the comment. In open gov, the term “grifter” is often thrown around with little to no evidence to back it up. Baseless name-calling is wrong.

However, I’m not sure what you mean exactly by “hate speech.” I believe the term “hate speech” was created (or promoted) by politicians a few years ago to begin censoring and sanctioning other opinions. We shouldn’t fall for that trap.

The thread’s title is “Calling out grifters is not healthy” - I believe calling them out is exactly the right thing to do. Many things in open gov are wrong, and not speaking about them will only make the issues worse, in my opinion.

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Big kudos for starting this thread. I agree with William too.

The worst kind of drama is always internal and self-glorifying acts are not helping. Rather than focusing on negative aspects and magnifying them, we better focus on the goals of Polkadot itself, such as:

  • Being the biggest and strongest decentralized community
  • Providing top blockchain tech and related products
  • Economic efficiency (eg. how to make treasury spendings lead to better ROIs) and sustainability
  • Freedom for Polkadot and its users identity (I mean thats a general web3/crypto goal)

It is all about where we look and focus. Sure, we need to have auditing and security, but this must not be the public’s focus, especially not the topics that comptetitors can exploit.

My recommendtion is to focus on the good, find good in everything Polkadot. With this attitude we can turn even the worst situations into better and grow. This is the only way to succeed.

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I’d like to share a brief section sharing my point of view on this topic from the document where I discuss the report and my experience raising a project with the support of OpenGov, as it directly relates to this issue.

OpenGov Vibes

Since the beginning of OpenGov and, especially since the appearance of new players in governance, specifically Giotto (among many others, but this has been the one that has had the greatest impact and accelerated the process in certain moments), indirectly (and directly), they have speed up the polarization of the ecosystem in social networks, which, although the original intentions are good, a conflictive environment to external eyes is not attractive to attract talent organically, that is, without having to resort to agencies in the middle. The same for maintaining talent, it is not pleasant to build openly in a conflictive and polarized environment.

If from the beginning the integrity of the agents with proposals already approved by the treasury is doubted without worrying about doing a minimum of follow-up or asking the author/person in charge, in the end no productive agent (!=political) will have interest in continuing an extended professional career in the ecosystem if they do not even know how to correctly value their work or its potential impact by the responsible entities (in this specific case and the current state of OpenGov, the DVs and major stakeholders participating in governance).

This is why all DVs and other agents of the ecosystem (politicians) active on social networks, if they are really agents and not internet trolls, should help and support the initiatives of the ecosystem, not continually hesitate with publications calling grifters to the whole world, when really hardly any “thieves” have been seen in the treasury, what has been seen are inefficiencies, incompetence and fictitious economies derived from the social bubbles that are formed in the web3 industry in general, which they do not reflect in any way a real and efficient economy in most cases (which is not something alarming, since from what I am seeing, possible cost overruns are normal in all cutting-edge industries and compared to the most other blockchain ecosystems, Polkadot is clearly the most transparent and the one that iterates the fastest on the results that are obtained).

Every new proposal to the treasury should be celebrated by stakeholders! Just as treasury applicants should be excited and grateful to participate in the ecosystem, not be worried and afraid that “agents” or trolls on Twitter/X or closed groups of “experts” will try to misjudge and put obstacles in the way and activity of the managed initiatives.

To help solve this, it is important that all of us and gov related initiatives such as the OG Tracker or Opengov.Watch help make the ecosystem and opengov an efficient place, but above all pleasant, attractive and easy to access for current and future productive agents of the web3 industry.

As for the “ecosystem political players” who like to be proactive in governance forums almost full-time, it’s great that they also help track proposals made to the OpenGov, of course, but not with the premise of carrying out “a witch hunt” to easy farm engagement on social networks, but with the premise of helping the proposals to communicate with the ecosystem, communicate possible complications, additional achievements… Improve communication between entities and monitor the different events, do not farm engagement. Twitter/X != Governance forum.

If the initiatives and “political agents” that monitor the proposals made to opengov and their impact are based only on identifying who is “good” or who is “bad”, then we would only continue promoting the polarization of the ecosystem, which will not go anywhere if it is continually encouraged. OpenGov must be a collaborative model. PVE. Not a Battle Royale.

Opengov != inefficiency

Another additional fact, when it comes to criticizing the performance of the proposals that have been approved in governance or are being approved, until now it is more than evident that the proposals executed during the management of the gov1 council are much less transparent and in more of a case pointed out as aberrantly more expensive and inefficient in terms of investment/impact. Therefore, try to encourage self-criticism and value how incredible the OpenGov model is and the opportunities it offers in the eyes of true productive agents of the industry who want to build openly, not in the eyes of “agents”/trolls of twitter.

– In any case, yes, it is also true that since the OpenGov fever began, the pace of spending has accelerated. But I have nothing to say about that because finance is not my field. In any case, there are several interesting topics in the forum on the subject right now analyzing the different budgets managed during the last semester by the Polkadot DAO.

OpenGov should only hope for more good agents opting for it with an idea to develop and a commitment to the ecosystem. What is not needed is more bureaucracy, nor another hundred directors/curators watching a dozen individuals work. We do not need everyone to have an opinion on all issues, nor for all initiatives to be directly related or conditioned to each other. An environment of collaboration and experimentation where different small projects are worked on that try to build a long-term future in the Polkadot ecosystem and Web3 industry in general.

From my point of view, the future Internet and Polkadot should not even need the role of politicians to approve and manage proposals, a large part of the process should be carried out semi-automatically with on-chain reputation systems, several different sources of data and AI tools that facilitate the decision-making in governance based on the data input provided by the entities that make the proposals and a series of dynamic guidelines that the community establishes based on the output of the joint results of all the initiatives (something like right now the “OpenGov strategy” on which the OpenGov.Watch initiative works, and also directly related to the mission of initiatives like the OG Tracker, by being the first of one of those possible sources of data, and by helping to define and simplify the guidelines and standards for improve the experience of the initiatives that apply to the Polkadot DAO support).

In short, there are many approaches that could be discussed to try to optimize the performance of the governance model and, above all, improve the experience of the entities that opt ​​for it to finance their activity. We will see in the coming years how it evolves. In any case, I am convinced that the future of this lies in one or several on-chain reputation systems, specialized sub-treasuries, a more gamification and automation of a large part of management/monitoring tasks and optimistic financing models in a similar way to what was proposed recently in the Wish for Change track or the PoC raised a few years ago by Shokunin Network.

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Good to see a variety of opinions here. I agree that tools like OG Tracker are a step in the right direction.

To view this from another angle: all societies need mechanisms to hold people accountable and sanction misbehavior. Currently, Polkadot lacks such a mechanism. This creates a lot of frustration among stakeholders, which they express on Twitter and other platforms (which is why this thread even exists).

To find peace, Polkadot needs to start sanctioning extreme misbehavior—behavior we have already witnessed a few times.

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I agree and understand the points of both OP and cpiccard. I’m still digesting LV5’s post, as it has many points and deserves another read through on my part.

I really would like to throw an olive branch out to Giotto and hope he would consider using his masterful skills and brilliance on any ecosystem outside of the Polkadot / Kusama and parachains ecosystems. He has proven all of his points that none of the core dev and tech members would acknowledge and seem dismissive from the quadratic voting discussion last November. He literally called out the weaknesses and did exactly what he warned the team, but the mindset and perspective of the others were only focused on anonymity of insiders vs anyone that wanted to exploit the system. Lesson learned - I see it, we get it ~ thank you.

With that in mind, I have been working on a OpenGov ratings and ranking system that should be ready to share with the OG Tracker and OpenGovWatch (+OpenGovWatchDog) teams. It was designed to be quantitative when combined with a checklist of requirements for any treasury related proposal. It is based on their current process and can be automated, eliminating subjective judgement and requires full transparency. If they agree or see its value, hopefully we will hear from them very soon. These are the best steps forward and I hope the olive branch is welcomed and the community will voice their support with comments or LIKES… Happy Friday!

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Once again, it’s important for us all to remember that there is no “Polkadot” entity except for us, so anyone who thinks it’s important for something to be done in Polkadot has a responsibility to learn how to issue referenda and try to get support to push it across the finish line.

Be the change you want to see in the ecosystem :slight_smile:

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Sure. That’s why I created this thread asking for technical advice:

If anyone knows how to set up such a referendum, please let me know.

I’ll try figuring it out myself, but it might take a bit longer.

I don’t disagree with your point on calling people out, it should be done with facts rather than hateful words.

I’m not in complete disagreement, I believe that some feedback reads wrong to people who don’t know responders to a ref or their background of experience. If someone applying has a bad reputation for delivering then maybe there is a mechanism or a gauge to be coded, so triggering words such as “grifter” aren’t used lightly?

My post was flagged for having this article link as not being related to the topic and not appropriate - BUT, if you read my previous post on this discussion, I posted the article to reflect how a new whale was noticed on SOL with the similar $13M that was the amount of DOT from the whale wallets that caused a lot of uproar and coincidentally the same out that was unstaked and transferred last week… i didn’t want to explain all of this, but Mr someone flagged the article without reading my previous post.