This is a great idea! I miss the old time when Kusama was leading the way
It would be great to have a better communication in order to share what it is happening in Kusama
Anyone would need to know what Kusama is building
This is a great idea! I miss the old time when Kusama was leading the way
It would be great to have a better communication in order to share what it is happening in Kusama
Anyone would need to know what Kusama is building
I think one big blocker for many innovators lies in too expensive monetary cost for getting started on Kusama.
Agile Coretime is a great technology that enables to cut execution cost down to a necessary bare minimum which should be acceptable for most individual developers and teams. However, to have an environment (parachain) in which this execution time can be redeemed, it is necessary to deposit 1,100 KSM (~$44,000 at current rates of around $40 / KSM) and to pay a fee of around 5 KSM (~$200) as of now.
I can imagine that the tech stack, community and philosophy attract innovators, but the high initial cost is probably the point where many innovators decide to chose another platform.
@sea212, if you notice @eskimorâs post above:
He links to this PR: Lower Parachain and Data Deposits to Encourage Experimentation on Kusama by KarimJedda ¡ Pull Request #501 ¡ polkadot-fellows/runtimes ¡ GitHub
Which will reduce such costs by 10x.
Similarly, I envision much of the accelerated development of this movement will happen through cheap and efficient smart contracts built on the Kusama Hub.
@ryan while I donât disagree we need to navigate waters carefully, we must also remember that blockchain system are âallegalâ:
Here is @gavofyork talking 9 years ago about many of the ideas Polkadot and Kusama is trying to rediscover today.
âAllegalityâ is a system which cannot care if its actions are considered legal or illegal. This is one of the reasons that these systems are considered âunstoppableâ or âresilientâ.
We must also remember that real blockchains are âneutralâ, as Andreas Antonopoulos explained more than 11 years ago:
Replacing his thoughts on âcurrenciesâ and âbitcoinâ to a more general âblockchainâ view:
Part of this movement on Kusama is to realign ourselves with the foundations on which all this technology was built for. It seems now, with the influx of meme-coins, degenerate gambling, brown-nosing of enterprise and governments, that much of the core philosphies of blockchain have been lost.
The mentality of:
will literally be the death of creating anything actually useful or revolutionary in the world.
I am not against what you said in a blockchain sense, i think those points are correct and valid.
My question is who are the brave souls willing to actually work on this in a world where governments are becoming increasingly totalitarian and argubly fascist.
I dont see a good incentive structure because the upside for an individual to build cool stuff and the downside is life imprisionment and being debanked.
The main point is, is not whether we should do it; we should. But who is it that should take on such a role, and if they choose to be anon, would treasury be willing to fund them?
Why not align with more current top privacy developments, like bringing Noir to Kusama?
Interesting you mention Noir, I find it very compelling and itâs actually part the approach weâll have in Virto for private DAOs, starting with a private voting PoC where DAOs do voting off-chain generating proofs that are verified on-chain to update the general tally in pallet referenda without having record of who voted what.
We want each DAO(and user?) to host an extra piece of infrastructure, a âVOSâ(Virtual(Virto) operating system), where organizations can keep their private affairs out of the blockchain but able to proof Kreivo that something happened(like a vote or money settlements), private data and cooperation with other DAOs is possible thanks to the built-in Matrix server that can host the organizationâs private conversations but also be used as secret storage and event bus for the VOS programs developed with Noir and Wasm. This programs will be familiar to developers as they will look like ink! contracts!
This usage of Noir doesnât require special developments in Kusama but for sure it will help to have some of the primitives used for verification available natively in the parachain runtime. It would also be interesting if JAM starts considering adding privacy related primitives like ZK related host functions and some form of built-in encryption for the DA layer, VOS compiles to PolkaVM so this privacy layer could become a JAM service that allows the ink!-like private contracts(and normal std wasm programs) interact with on-chain ink! contracts.
I noticed the momentum going flat after the Corejam announcement and the discussions swirling around about the future of Kusama or the need for it once the parachain auction system is replaced with the Coretime Marketplace. The sentiment at the time felt as if DOT made plans for its future without considering the iimpact or future role of Kusama. There were other external factors before and after that contributed to the slowdown, but that stuck out the most from my POV.
I get the âcreate Chaosâ tagline and how it represents the ethos to go against the grain, because you can - but times have changed and we have all (or most have) grown up a little and maybe we want to show what the younger, rebellious, goth, rocker bro has grown up to become⌠did he choose the opposite path (from DOT) down the dark road of lawlessness challenging authorities, and running until authorities are able to take him down!?!
or
goes in the direction of the path DOT is on, with the determination to prove he can do everything DOT can do and more. One option: solving the key missteps and issues DOT has ignored would put DOT in its shadows and create the separation or differentiating valuesâŚ
Consider this before going to âDarkâ path: Privacy focused and tornado cash-like apps will make Kusama the haven for all criminals and bad actors. Not only will they all hop over from DOT, it will be an ecosystem for all blockchain grifters to relocate and will truly be âchaosâ that will be shutdown by authorities - it will only be a matter of time.
The other option does not have to be polar opposite to the extreme - privacy can be forefront, but should not violate laws or regulations that would require authorities to intervene. We need to attract the right talent and right type of risk takers that innovate for a better world - not for personal greed. No-code/low-code apps that convert apps that can launch and be tested in a live environment would be very attractive. Removing the barrier to learn substrate would dramatically boost developer adoption - especially if those user-friendly apps are created for each stage of development and based on the type of app/categories. At the very least, having bots that can be the directory and provider of documentation - and guide developers through the initial transition and getting started (where the highest drop-off % for Devs interested in DOT leave). Checking code or helping problem-solve common issues would be amazing - but an environment where DEVS create real working solutions that make it easier for the next one would not only standout from DOT, the growth and expansion of devs and projects would dwarf DOT.
Two very opposite outcomes and ecosystemsâŚ
I like the use of the word chaos (in its positive interpretation). For example, going to the city center to shop during this holiday season is total chaos due to the sheer number of people making their purchases. This chaos, however, shows me that the economy is functioning and thereâs a lot of money circulating. This is the kind of chaos Shawn is proposingâplenty of activity, plenty of noise in Kusama.
Now, one key idea from his post suggests âcoordinating efforts.â So, letâs think about and contribute ideas on how weâll achieve that, rather than focusing solely on what product might be launched. There have already been some good ideas mentioned regarding privacy-focused products to test.
For developers:
To ensure the message reaches the entire Web3 community, several agents are needed. So:
There must be communication between the technical side and content creators. How will that be done?
These are just some questions that come to mind. Itâs not necessary for anyone to clarify them for me, but I believe theyâre points worth considering, in addition to everything thatâs already been discussed.
Something which has been lingering in my thoughts on this topic and I think echoes some of the points Shawn has made. There is inherent risk with the thought of Kusama fully embracing the Dark and Chaos of a fully anonymous network with the purposeful intention of obfuscating identity and information from the watchful eyes of three-letter organizations. Iâm not saying these things shouldnât exist, but it seems there are obvious reasons nobody would want their name attached to developing mixers or platforms associated with blatantly illegal activities. In addition, there seems to be some hesitation on possible governance participation in funding the development of these legally questionable tools.
Could the OpenGov DAO or the participants who voted in favor of funding something like a TornadoCash tool on Kusama be held liable for those decisions?
Perhaps it would serve better to change the narrative of Kusama embracing the Chaos of anonymity and the potential illicit activities that enables, to instead focus on the emergent Chaos of a truly Neutral, Agnostic playground.
The Chaos may not need to be Neo and Trinity trying to hide their wealth and identities as they wage war on the banking industry.
With the functional equivalence of Polkadotâs enterprise-capable technologies, a heterogenous multichain ecosystem, and grassroots accessibility, Kusama stands as a highly capable tool for meaningful activism and humanitarian service.
If first-world anonymity becomes a byproduct of these services, would that become a feature?
Thanks for flagging this.
I lead bd at aztec labs, core maintainer of the open-source ZK DSL, Noir.
Noir offeres the quickest route to market for developers who want to build applications with privacy features. One of our goals this year is to proliferate the use of Noir in other ecosystems.
Noir is universal: the witness and the compiled program can be fed into any proving backend, which can then generate a verifier contract for deployment on blockchains. e.g. Generate a Solidity Verifier (NB. Moonbeam has been tested and is known to work, so i assume this would work out of the box on Kusama)
The Ethereum Foundation, along with Aztec, Polygon, Scroll, Taiko, zkSync, announced grants for four projects building with Noir as part of the last collaborative ZK grant round.
Noir was inducted as an official language on Github last year
Noir has featured in the top 5 fastest growing developer ecosystems two years in a row (Electric Capital)
Projects like anoncast on Base and zkpassport.id bring privacy features to users. You can see a wider, curated list here
We would be happy to explore collaboration on GTM efforts as it relates to Noir use on Kusama.
I have been waiting to answer this for a while. My opinions are mine and probably controversial in some aspects.
And I am going to approach the initial hypothesis of @shawntabrizi from a slightly different angle that will leave some questions of the current discussion out while opening other topics.
Kusama has died down recently:
- Polkadot has been really stable recently, causing people to forget how important Kusama is.
- Kusama lacks a fundamentally unique selling point and feature set.
- Kusama lacks a fundamentally unique narrative and theme which is independent from Polkadot.
One of the main schizophrenias that I have been seen for long time, is the answer to the question: âto who is targeted Polkadot?â. There is a lot of effort ( and financial resources) in launching hackathons and meetups all over the world trying to attract small teams or indie developers to code and deploy in Polkadot. But most of the narrative, iconography, messaging, opengov and TG conversations are spinning around institutional/corporate adoption. We mention verticals, growth, conversion funnels, we spent countless days on the carpet of the expensive fairs, we speak and behave like corporate.
Maybe maybe maybe, giving Kusama another chance could help us to separate messaging, documentation, onboarding, efforts and product. Leave Polkadot the rock solid set of stable corporate friendly features, and give Kusama back the spirit of the frontier, the laboratory, the event horizon, the fracture where things happen (as everyone has given their own Chaos definition, this is mine).
For that we need Kusama to be accessible ( in all the meanings of the concept - we have advanced in the financial and technical constraints of this, but still way to go), fast and cheap to deploy in. If deploying is complex, costly, obscure - people will go somewhere else.
Opinionating the network with privacy features? I donât have the answer
Setting the table to make it possible? I am more inclined in this direction. If someone wants to do it, all the pieces are in place.
But as I mentioned, for me it is more relevant to recover the Laboratory, where people can break things, test and learn. Other things - including narratives - will come later.
The question here is: what is next ?
If there is a critical mass and political will, I guess this could start like creating a task force from different backgrounds, experiences and context to start a process, which will likely end with an WFC and then voted, no?
Update: In the original post it was mentioned a RFC, when it should be WFC.
I hope Kusama can get this attention and change of narrative to become that laboratory that incubates innovation and brews creativity(hence Kreivo). Iâm gald Shawn started this discussion because itâs not easy for others to create excitement and momentum.
The focus on privacy is a good start, it helps to have some leading narrative, unfortunately we are in an industry that lives on narratives and hype to attract people as it doesnât deliver anything else of value for the common folk(letâs all change that!). Absolute privacy for individuals is a must(opposite for organizations), it needs to become a universal standard so we should push for it not with the goal to attract the cypherpunk hackers, but because if thereâs a place where the latest ideas/trends/advancements/etc. in Web3 should begin thatâs in Kusama.
Whatâs next? not sure RFCs are needed(Kusama is not the focus of the fellowship anyway), wishes for change are a good way to align the community, but literally anyone with initiative and ideas should just step forward while the rest of us welcomes them in a kind and supportive way, it always surprised me how Kusama governance can be harsher with newcomers than Polkadot.
Hereâs my 2025 TODO for example, we can all have a similar north but not everybody has to follow the same path, e.g. while the Parity hub bets on attracting a new wave of (solidity)developers, I am a bit skeptic of that approach and instead bet on going directly after entrepreneurs giving them a ready to use set of tools to get their business up and running(with the missing bits likely filled by AI?).
One of the key lessons Iâve learned in the Polkadot ecosystem is that without political support from the communityâwhether through votes or opinion backingâyou wonât get very far. Proposals get rejected, forum posts go unanswered, and TG/Element messages remain in limbo. And more even if you want to influence one of two main chains.
At the core of the discussion is a fundamental question: What should be done with Kusama (setting aside privacy and narrative debates for now)? It is a launched product, but by twists of fate, it has become the ghost in the room. The website feels outdated, and for various reasonsâbrand communication, management complexity, resource allocation, audience fragmentation, ⌠âit struggles to find its place.
Does the ecosystem want Kusama to be only a $450 million Alamogordo site experiment chain lab? If so, then these discussions are pointlessâeveryone should simply move on and go back to their homes to continue whatever they are doing. Or there is a will to evolve the lab to support Spammening style nuclear type of test and something else? And here is where I find important to know what the ecosystem wants. I donât think that the 22 polkadot rando we wrote in this thread will go anywhere without political support of the ecosystem.
(Re) Activating Kusama requires a strategy, resources, documentation, communication, syncronization and clarifying its relationship with Polkadot (because obviously affects its position).
Thereâs no need for a laboratory, and never was IMO.
If it works, it will be replicated in Polkadot ASAP, as otherwise you lose momentum with your main project (moonriver/moonbeam).
If it doesnât work, itâs abandoned.
The only moment Kusama thrived was when Polkadot didnât exist (or lacked core functionalities).
As long as most of crypto is so dependent in network effect, Kusama needs itâs own set of features that slightly diverge, otherwise, why dilute users/holdings?
The canary going into the dark seems aligned with this:
Thereâs no need for a laboratory, and never was IMO.
In my first text, Laboratory is a metaphor not an actual test network.
Quick, fast, accessible, low risk (in resources time, $ costs) community oriented network. And on top, whatever flavor.
Based on the various opinions expressed, a balanced approach appears to be the most practical path forward:
Kusama should maintain its role as a Web3 experimentation hub, but it should also expand to support startups and enterprises.
Privacy-preserving technologies should be integrated, but Kusama should avoid becoming an extreme âanonymous havenâ that could attract regulatory crackdowns.
Development tools should be made more accessible, lowering the technical barriers for developers to build and deploy on Kusama.
Kusama must remain an independent ecosystem, not just a âtesting groundâ for Polkadot but a place where innovation can thrive on its own.
Next Steps
⢠The Kusama community needs to align on a clear development direction , ensuring that all stakeholders share a common vision.
⢠Create support programs for startups and developers, making it easier to build and scale projects within Kusamaâs ecosystem.
⢠Enhance communication and marketing strategies, increasing awareness and participation in Kusamaâs revival efforts.
In short: Kusama doesnât need to be âtoo chaoticâ, but it also shouldnât become a âcheap replicaâ of Polkadot. A balanced model that combines technological experimentation, privacy protection, and innovation support could be the most effective approach.