# Community suggestions and requests for the OpenGov model on Kusama **URL:** \ **Category:** Governance\ **Created:** [November 21, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179 "2022-11-21T12:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/1 "2022-11-21T12:38:32Z")
With [referendum 244](https://kusama.polkassembly.io/referendum/244) upgrading Kusama’s runtime to [v9320](https://github.com/paritytech/polkadot/releases/tag/v0.9.32) and including [OpenGov](https://medium.com/polkadot-network/gov2-polkadots-next-generation-of-decentralised-governance-4d9ef657d11b) on Kusama Network, the new governance phase started. I am opening this post for the community to include all changes, suggestions and requests they want to see in the new model: for discussion and eventual modification if approved (this can include but its not constrained to: changes in parameters, voting periods, confirmation periods, enactment periods, changes on tracks, inclusion of new tracks, among other things). Let us know your thoughts! ---
**Author:** ![frankywild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@frankywild](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/frankywild)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/2 "2022-11-21T12:55:37Z")
Hello! I have a question. I can read that the decision period on Polkadot will last 28 days. Does that mean it will last 7 days on Kusama? That would be the most logical in my opinion. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![rich](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rich/32/159_2.png) [@rich](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/rich)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/3 "2022-11-21T14:42:02Z")
Amazing news. Throwing down some questions / thoughts I have for opengov - in no particular order: - Governance delegation is clearly central to kickstarting / scaling this new system, is there any thinking yet on basic UIs for _discovering_ delegates. If this is kinda like nominators finding validators, then how might this discovery happen? e.g. i can imagine a very basic addition to polkadotjs similar to staking tab… but this is obvs very low info. - Its chicken / egg - in order to aggregate gov delegates, we need gov delegates who can then be aggregated into some sort of discovery platform? Do we expect this will happen organically? Do we need to give it a push? - In this example, the initial discovery challenge is in the hands of gov delegates who must bring alive their story, their terms, their vision and their plans and ensure that KSM holders are made aware of this opportunity. - We can then begin to think about orgins and tracks - do we expect specialist on-chain organisations dedicated to these? Might we have some group pitching some vision or project that requires a lot of tipping - for say a creative project that has 1000 very small proposals that together manifest a larger outcome? Do we think on-chain orgs will be fluid across orgins and tracks… flexing the needs of incubated projects to match the opengov system? - This feels like a really exciting design space - to develop / experiment with and bring alive the visions of many gov delegates… - currently my own experience comes via edgeware’s on-chain governance, whereas other groups are maybe experienced in kusama council - or have bootstrapped stuff with their own funds e.g. [shokunin](https://shokunin.network). So a further question - should we fund experimental governance delegates - pre delegation? Let’s call it a ‘_gov delegation incubator fund_’ - kinda like the Substrate builders programme, but involving Web3/KSM and DOT in some sort of aligned funding that is focused not on parachains / tooling, but on the on-chain orgs/collectives driving in some sort of direction. There are a very small number of groups with the experience of on-chain governance, funding and indeed talent / project development that can actually make use of Gov2 - not only the basic tools, but able to experiment with and learn about the system via active experimentation. Anyways - thats it for now, but I think the exciting thing about opengov, is it is a whole new territory that we can and should experiment with as a blank slate - how we get this innovation, will likely require some advance support / funding from the treasuries / Web3 in a very clearly articulated strategic framework. Not sure who setup builders programme, but would love to help figure out this for delegates… ---
**Author:** ![ChrawnnaCorp](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/chrawnnacorp/32/10469_2.png) [@ChrawnnaCorp](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/ChrawnnaCorp)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/4 "2022-11-23T19:34:57Z")
Enactment periods for Tips & Spends (tracks 30-34) is 28 days. Combined with the 28 Day decision periods, it could take up to 8 weeks for spends to process. One suggestion is to lower the enactment period to 48 hours in line with Treasurer (Track 11)! Please discuss! _FYI_ Here is a google sheet with Track information as we know it: > **[Open Gov Tracks](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DlJcS3vhqQ8sjCD7UsLsboWN962s4qWkrtzWz7rQke8/edit?usp=sharing)** > > Sheet1 > > \#,Track,Track Permissions,Track Capacity,Max Spend (KSM),Max Spend (PR #6310),Submission (KSM Deposit),Preparation Period (hours and blocks),Decision (KSM Deposit),Decision Period (hours and blocks),Confirming Period (ho... ---
**Author:** ![xlc](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/xlc/32/690_2.png) [@xlc](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/xlc)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 9:13pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/5 "2022-11-23T21:13:57Z")
Not sure if this is the best place to post this, but here are some of my feedbacks to the polkadot.js apps UI. ![Screen Shot 2022-11-24 at 10.06.04 AM](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/uploads/polkadot2/original/1X/60458de3f3c34cd7ba82b1576f770ed9e5fcb069.png) ![Screen Shot 2022-11-24 at 10.10.24 AM](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/uploads/polkadot2/original/1X/a8959c1c7ac8864bc91e465314c91cfb1fdb0858.png) ---
**Author:** ![brenzi](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/brenzi/32/1199_2.png) [@brenzi](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/brenzi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/6 "2022-11-24T01:14:51Z")
I second @ChrawnnaCorp 's suggestion to reduce the enactment period of treasury spendings. Kusama was so far a very fast-deciding, fast-acting network. I’m very concerned about 28 days decision period with given curves and 28 days enactment period because: - I doubt that treasury spends will find more than 1% support (who cares?), so a big spend will have to wait at least ~20d to reach the threshold - big spends will suffer more severely from exchange rate uncertainty in absolute terms but also because of longer time between proposing and receiving, so waiting \>20d + 28d is very risky. Stablecoins can mitigate that, but we’re not there yet - The worst thing is: even if your referendum passes, you can’t be sure you’ll really get the funds after 28 days, because the meaning of an enactment period is exactly that interventions are possible My gut feeling for tracks 30-35 is: - decision period: 14d - confirmation period 48h is fine - support curve reaches 1% after 7d and 0.1% after 12d for big spends - enactment period: 48h Maybe a detail in the big picture, but I’d like to mention [our PR](https://github.com/paritytech/substrate/pull/12153) to introduce smooth exponential curves in addition to piecewise-linear reciprocal curves. Apart from computational and code simplicity, I think exponential curves are much more intuitive than reciprocal (like: “support thresholds halves every 24h”) ---
**Author:** ![brenzi](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/brenzi/32/1199_2.png) [@brenzi](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/brenzi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 1:39am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/7 "2022-11-24T01:39:38Z")
I’d also like to specifically raise the discussion on a curve setup that would approximate adaptive quorum biasing, which I think has a nice dynamic ![image](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/uploads/polkadot2/original/1X/8359e4c55c48d2c634eb7ab0f8511e9720e2fab7.jpeg) such curves could be implemented on the basis of [our PR](https://github.com/paritytech/substrate/pull/12153) ---
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 8:39am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/8 "2022-11-24T08:39:01Z")
The decision period is max 28 days: this means a proposal will be able to be up for vote for max 28 days, but can be approved before the 28th day (by fulfilling the criteria for approval). If a proposal reaches approval and support needed before the 28th day and fulfils the confirmation period, then it is approved. ---
**Author:** ![ChrawnnaCorp](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/chrawnnacorp/32/10469_2.png) [@ChrawnnaCorp](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/ChrawnnaCorp)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/9 "2022-11-24T14:26:24Z")
Very thoughtful, brenzi. I didn’t consider the exposure to the changing market price. Bad for the proposer one way and bad for token holders the other. ---
**Author:** ![lightsonemusic](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/lightsonemusic/32/7425_2.png) [@lightsonemusic](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/lightsonemusic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/10 "2022-11-24T17:12:46Z")
how much to bond in Gov2 porposals? ---
**Author:** ![brenzi](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/brenzi/32/1199_2.png) [@brenzi](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/brenzi)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/11 "2022-11-24T17:56:31Z")
I just want to add that we should not forget the `Treasurer` Origin, whose support curve reaches 1% only ~7h before end of decision period. So we have to expect that a “huge” spend will take 28 days to decide. Along my reasoning above, that is just too long, even if in this case the enactment is set to 2 days (which is good) As it is now, I wonder why anyone would choose the BigSpender route. Even if the amount is below 3.33kKsm, it looks favorable to use Treasurer Origin ---
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 9:11am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/12 "2022-11-25T09:11:22Z")
@brenzi how is it more favourable to use Treasurer origin than Big Spender? this is the Big Spender curve: ![Screenshot 2022-11-25 at 10.09.03](https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/uploads/polkadot2/original/1X/427ebf845aeec4e1207410190db934c43966e87d.png) ---
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 9:21am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/13 "2022-11-25T09:21:30Z")
At the moment on Kusama the submission deposit is 100ksm, and the decision deposit is 16.66ksm for all curves (more info on the curves can be found [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V5o-VYVT2C0B1zj_9VnWjti6USwig1v1ND-96otA1Ug/edit#gid=310803467)). One of the changes I’d like to propose is the reduction to at least 1/10 for the submission deposit. ---
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 9:28am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/14 "2022-11-25T09:28:16Z")
@rich - Yes, wallets and applications have on their roadmap an easy UI for discovery and delegation (this for example is included in Nova’s next milestone I believe - and I am sure also on Talisman - I will get you the info for polkadot.js Apps). - We will probably need to give this a push: particularly with education and sessions in which people understand what is delegation, what does it entail and how do they do it: a call from the extrinsics tab for each track is not the most practical one, so easy UIs will help here. I am adding here also @rich’s proposal for those who want to review, for the _gov delegation incubator fund_: [https://kusama.polkassembly.io/post/1988](https://kusama.polkassembly.io/post/1988) ---
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 9:29am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/15 "2022-11-25T09:29:23Z")
Thank you for the input, @xlc - noted to add on Polkadot.js Apps. ---
**Author:** ![brenzi](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/brenzi/32/1199_2.png) [@brenzi](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/brenzi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/16 "2022-11-25T14:18:13Z")
I assume that the critical challenge of passing a _big_ or _unlimited_ treasury spend will be support, not approval. So, if we look at the minimum support needed in the last moment possible to pass for BigSpender, we need to look at the curve at 28d-48h, where the support curve is at 0.1954652% If we now look at the Treasurer Track, we need to look at the linear support curve at 28d-3h, which is at 50%x3/(28x24)=0.2232% So, the threshold for support as well as approval is pretty much the same for these tracks under my assumptions. Sure, the more support we can get, the greater the difference between these tracks (BigSpender passes quicker with increasing support), but: If we now consider the enactment period of two days for Treasurer, and 28d for BigSpender, I clearly would favor a Treasurer referendum, even for funds below 3’333KSM Is my math somehow buggy, or am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/17 "2022-11-25T16:05:50Z")
OK, you focused the analysis in the enactment period. Thanks for the clarification! ---
**Author:** ![rich](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rich/32/159_2.png) [@rich](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/rich)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 5:00pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/18 "2022-11-25T17:00:23Z")
> [@brenzi](#): > > As it is now, I wonder why anyone would choose the BigSpender route. Even if the amount is below 3.33kKsm, it looks favorable to use Treasurer Origin On first look I wonder whether we may well just end up with one treasury track, and then some differing curves dependent on the funds requested… seems at first glance that this might make things more fluid? there’s also the question that on-chain reputation / previous delivery can become a way to fast track things. its interesting to think through how this might end up becoming much simpler over time. ---
**Author:** ![asteeber](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/asteeber/32/2475_2.png) [@asteeber](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/asteeber)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2022, 5:36am UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/19 "2022-11-28T05:36:25Z")
Hello everyone, lots of great discussion going on here and I thought I would throw in my 10 cents. I’ll lay out my opinions, but I’d like to preface by saying that I do understand these initial parameters were set with the intention of testing/ protecting the system and sparking discussions like these. With that said, I think: - Adjusting the formulas for the approval and support curves should be considered _after_ the ecosystem has decided on reasonable periods. (I like brenzi’s curve suggestion and I think it would be appropriate for specific tracks) - The `decisionPeriod` for all tracks is much too long for Kusama. - The `enactmentPeriod` is too short for admin referenda and too long for spending referenda. - The `confirmPeriod` is too short for admin referenda and too long for spending referenda. - The `preparePeriod` for all tracks are much too short (frankly, it’s underutilized). - `submissionDeposit` is way too high. I don’t really understand how the Fellowship will play a role, but since it’s in its infancy I think we don’t have to worry about it too much for the time being. But that’s coming from a non-fellow, so take that with a grain of salt. [I went ahead and made some suggested changes to the `referenda.tracks` parameters](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DHgjfaV0bvYVlsQswEM0EltuYnpYl7GJdg24H-sFpiM/edit?usp=sharing). Keep in mind that all of my suggestions are off-the-cuff, so please let me know if my suggested configuration could be gamed. Though I did try to create a good system of checks and balances, such that things are fast and affordable but not exploitable. Overall, I tried to achieve the following: - Decrease the `submissionDeposit` to a more affordable amount. - Decrease the number of referenda that can be deciding in each of the spending tracks while decreasing their `decisionDeposit`. - Increase the `decisionDeposit` for more consequential referenda. - Utilize the `preparePeriod` for all tracks. - Speed up everything. - Make the `referendum_canceller` and `referedum_killer` tracks even speedier. Looking forward to feedback! Honestly, I am _very_ excited about this new system! It has a ton of potential; it’s like a 4D game of governance chess. _Truly_, Kusama and Polkadot were built for scalability. Respectfully, Adam ---
**Author:** ![RTTI-5220](https://dub1.discourse-cdn.com/flex005/user_avatar/forum.polkadot.network/rtti-5220/32/9216_2.png) [@RTTI-5220](https://forum.polkadot.network/u/RTTI-5220)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179/20 "2022-11-28T18:19:11Z")
Thank you for these suggestions, @asteeber! Some of these have also been discussed by others and are important changes to take into account. [Next page](https://forum.polkadot.network/t/community-suggestions-and-requests-for-the-opengov-model-on-kusama/1179.md?page=2)